Welcome to our Forums!

Type /register while in-game to register for a forum account.

Log in

Thwartin' be Hard

NerdieBirdieYT

Well-Known Member
So this is a totally undeveloped idea, which is why it's not in Suggestions.

Raiding has gotten nerfed the past few updates, which is totally fair in and of itself. The changes to raiding make sense. What troubles me, as someone who thinks raids are absolutely thrilling (take a look at my last couple survival series if you don't believe me, lol), is that raiding was already REALLY HARD. Build a five-block wall and you're usually completely safe. I go around a lot trying to get into various Towns, I love trying to figure out how I could get in. Usually the Towns I get into have no defenses at all or things outside their wall that are higher than the wall.

Basically, if you have 5-block walls, you have a very low chance of getting raided.

While protection from losing everything you own is something I love about Loka, the previously mentioned nerfs to raiding (specifically Line-of-Sight item pickup and entity interaction) make what used to be really hard almost impossible for any established base.

My super undeveloped idea is this: make some custom items for raiders. What about a levitating potion, or some tool that helps you jump higher? What about a rare item that outlines chests or something, helping you see where you need to get to?

--

Something else to consider is the use of Replay Mod / World Download mods. These mods are unallowed in most situations, and Crypt has expressed his concerns about allowing them, as they would "become the new meta." While that makes sense, my issue with that ruling has always been that there isn't really a way to tell if those mods are being used. A player could download a foreign Town and find a way in without looking suspicious in the least. The player could find a hole in the downloaded Town, then go there in the server, acting inconspicuous and as if they just stumbled upon it. Basically, players may already using these mods, which would give them an advantage over rule-abiding players.

To me, the use of Replay/similar for raiding purposes can be part of the fun. You still have to scour the base, perhaps even more than usual. You get to see it from different perspectives. It doesn't give you any ways in that aren't accessible to players without the mod. If you download it, you scout the base, you can plan a raid with your Town! How cool is that! :O Side-note: I world-downloaded NN once with admin permission to check for holes. I had some NN peeps in a call and it was so much fun flying around our base looking for dangerous holes!

Usually Replay isn't allowed because it makes it easy to see ores underground. For Loka, though... We already know where the ores are. If you go strip mining on a continent... Who even are you o.o

-

So yeah, there are my super bad ideas to #MakeThwartingGreatAgain .

What do YOU think?

--

Edit: the point of this thread is not to advocate for allowing Replay and such, but rather to raise discussion and ideas for ways to make raiding better.
 
Last edited:

Mason97m

Well-Known Member
As a player that doesn't raid in a town that I don't want raided, I can tell you that anyone with some desire to keep their home safe will go the extra mile to ensure that whatever advantages you're asking for are well guarded against. I'm not about a system that pushes for raiding. Forcing folks to build their structures underground or build glass domes runs more towards a run of the mill factions server and I think we can do just a bit better.
 

NerdieBirdieYT

Well-Known Member
As a player that doesn't raid in a town that I don't want raided, I can tell you that anyone with some desire to keep their home safe will go the extra mile to ensure that whatever advantages you're asking for are well guarded against. I'm not about a system that pushes for raiding. Forcing folks to build their structures underground or build glass domes runs more towards a run of the mill factions server and I think we can do just a bit better.
Totally valid point. I don't want to see Towns forced underground either, but I would like to see raiding improved on a bit.
 

Pac_Man_

Active Member
Sentry
Here’s my two cents on all of this. Yeah, thwartin’ be hard, but I’d argue that’s by design. Raiding is something you can do, not something that is a major part of the server or it’s meta. Raiding is a game that rewards cunning and patience. It rewards taking the toolbox you have and using it in a new way. Raiding exists because you can raid, not because you’re wanted to raid.

Mason said it best, any way people create to get in, people will find a way to guard against it. For instance when the great Silverhand pig burglaries were discovered, Mason and I went in and meticulously swept the city, replacing any of these exploitable entrances we could find with new, pig-proof ones. Since then there have been a few new advancements in both raiding and defending that we have continued to stay on top of.

In this respect I would consider raiding something of an arms race, if you will. Two sides continually developing new techniques and technologies to render the others ineffective. That’s a good thing in my opinion because it encourages out of the box thinking.

That all said, I get where you’re coming from. Sometimes it feels like raiding is more trouble than it’s worth. The solution is not, in my opinion, giving out new tools like levitation potions. Those would take all of a day, tops, for people like Mason and I to fix our defenses for. Besides, all that would encourage would be the same old technique again and again until it doesn’t work, or if it’s too powerful it would make towns have to take ridiculous or extremely ugly looking steps to ensure we’re safe.

I don’t know what the solution is but I do know something that is very “lock and key” is not the way. If raiding needs a buff, which I don’t think it does yet. (Although I don’t raid much these days. At least that you need to know about.) The solution would be rooted in giving people tools that you can extrapolate to raiding if you’re creative enough, not giving people a free raid ticket for the next 2 hours.

As a final thing, no world download because it leaves the playing field too different between using mods/not using mods and also lets you know the locations of things that you wouldn’t be able to without breaking into the town first, which isn’t a good thing I believe.

It’s the proverbial game of cat and mouse, that ever expanding arms race, that makes raiding fun in my opinion. Not actually the raiding.
 
Last edited:

Qfu

Member
Honestly, the rules regarding what you can and cannot do whilst raiding has to loosen up. Not being able to trick players into letting you into their base etc is frankly quite a dumb rule, havent seen any other servers with that rule. Not allowing glitching into bases is obviously against the rules, but I believe some of the other rules which involve raiding should be loosened or even removed.
 

NerdieBirdieYT

Well-Known Member
Here’s my two cents on all of this. Yeah, thwartin’ be hard, but I’d argue that’s by design. Raiding is something you can do, not something that is a major part of the server or it’s meta. Raiding is a game that rewards cunning and patience. It rewards taking the toolbox you have and using it in a new way. Raiding exists because you can raid, not because you’re wanted to raid.

Mason said it best, any way people create to get in, people will find a way to guard against it. For instance when the great Silverhand pig burglaries were discovered, Mason and I went in and meticulously swept the city, replacing any of these exploitable entrances we could find with new, pig-proof ones. Since then there have been a few new advancements in both raiding and defending that we have continued to stay on top of.

In this respect I would consider raiding something of an arms race, if you will. Two sides continually developing new techniques and technologies to render the others ineffective. That’s a good thing in my opinion because it encourages out of the box thinking.

That all said, I get where you’re coming from. Sometimes it feels like raiding is more trouble than it’s worth. The solution is not, in my opinion, giving out new tools like levitation potions. Those would take all of a day, tops, for people like Mason and I to fix our defenses for. Besides, all that would encourage would be the same old technique again and again until it doesn’t work, or if it’s too powerful it would make tones have to take ridiculous or extremely ugly looking steps to ensure we’re safe.

I don’t know what the solution is but I do know something that is very “lock and key” is not the way. If raiding needs a buff, which I don’t think it does yet. (Although I don’t raid much these days. At least that you need to know about.) The solution would be rooted in giving people tools that you can extrapolate to raiding if you’re creative enough, not giving people a free raid ticket for the next 2 hours.

As a final thing, no world download because it leaves the playing field too different between using mods/not using mods and also lets you know the locations of things that you wouldn’t be able to without breaking into the town first, which isn’t a good thing I believe.

It’s the proverbial game of cat and mouse, that ever expanding arms race, that makes raiding fun in my opinion. Not actually the raiding.
Honestly, the rules regarding what you can and cannot do whilst raiding has to loosen up. Not being able to trick players into letting you into their base etc is frankly quite a dumb rule, havent seen any other servers with that rule. Not allowing glitching into bases is obviously against the rules, but I believe some of the other rules which involve raiding should be loosened or even removed.
It's perspective, really. I agree with a lot of what you said, Pac, the back-and-forth is certainly something to keep in mind. I don't think anyone wants to drive people underground. That being said, raiding any kind of developed Town is nearly impossible now, assuming the 5-block wall. I agree raiding shouldn't be necessarily encouraged or prioritized, but it is a fun part of the server, and with the past few updates (again, which are good updates), it's making something which was already difficult even harder.

The solution isn't as easy as a levitation potion, I agree. But I'd really like to see raiding be a bit more plausible in the future :D
 

Skuhoo

Well-Known Member
Guardian
Honestly, the rules regarding what you can and cannot do whilst raiding has to loosen up. Not being able to trick players into letting you into their base etc is frankly quite a dumb rule, havent seen any other servers with that rule.
Loka isn't any other server. That rule exists specifically to encourage town owners to recruit, as players who don't get into a town quickly are unlikely to stick around.
 

Skuhoo

Well-Known Member
Guardian
It's perspective, really. I agree with a lot of what you said, Pac, the back-and-forth is certainly something to keep in mind. I don't think anyone wants to drive people underground. That being said, raiding any kind of developed Town is nearly impossible now, assuming the 5-block wall. I agree raiding shouldn't be necessarily encouraged or prioritized, but it is a fun part of the server, and with the past few updates (again, which are good updates), it's making something which was already difficult even harder.

The solution isn't as easy as a levitation potion, I agree. But I'd really like to see raiding be a bit more plausible in the future :D
Your post and subsequent comments come off as feeling almost entitled to a town's items. If a town does everything right why should it be anything short of impossible to raid said town? Bar some sort siege mechanic that allows breaking blocks within foreign towns it's not possible to introduce or change any mechanics to guarantee that a town is raidable. Custom raiding items like levitation potions would serve only to reinforce the underground lifestyle many towns have embraced. If there's a new way to raid towns will patch it and we'll be back to square one, only this time with more bizarre raid defenses like pearl gates.

I get that you like walking into unsecured towns while they're offline and grabbing lots of loot, but that's not an experience we should guarantee and should only happen when a town screws something up.
 

NerdieBirdieYT

Well-Known Member
Your post and subsequent comments come off as feeling almost entitled to a town's items. If a town does everything right why should it be anything short of impossible to raid said town? Bar some sort siege mechanic that allows breaking blocks within foreign towns it's not possible to introduce or change any mechanics to guarantee that a town is raidable. Custom raiding items like levitation potions would serve only to reinforce the underground lifestyle many towns have embraced. If there's a new way to raid towns will patch it and we'll be back to square one, only this time with more bizarre raid defenses like pearl gates.
I am not "entitled" to a Town's items. Again, this concept is very crude, which is why it's not in Suggestions. I'm certainly not bright enough to know what would and wouldn't work specifically for Loka. The levitation potion, chest thing, and mod examples were just that: examples. They are not fleshed-out, not pondered over, and probably not fit for Loka. The point of this thread was to raise discussion, not necessarily offer a concrete solution.

I get that you like walking into unsecured towns while they're offline and grabbing lots of loot, but that's not an experience we should guarantee and should only happen when a town screws something up.
I don't see the need to insult me here, as lots of people enjoy a good raid. The raids I've enjoyed the most are the ones that are hardest to get into: Auru and Stormgarden, for example. The Auru raid especially took a few hours and lots of help from Town mates. We could have been caught at any point. We were caught in the Vinovia raid, and narrowly managed to escape. Raids where we know people ARE online are even more thrilling. I don't want raids to keep being nerfed and make those cray experiences virtually impossible.

I absolutely agree we should not guarantee raids; they are not the focal point. This thread is for highlighting the nerfing of raids and generating discussion on ways to make them slightly more possible without driving Towns underground.

Is such a thing possible? I don't know - that's why this thread is here.
 

Skuhoo

Well-Known Member
Guardian
I think you're missing my point. It's not just that your suggestions wouldn't work, it's that any new method of raiding would just result in another mechanic on a checklist of other mechanics that towns need to build around. Furthermore, additional raiding methods would disproportionately affect new, inexperienced players who are unlikely to be unaware of all these raiding methods Loka has.

The only benefit I'd see from introducing a new raiding mechanic would be to balance the length of this "checklist" to the point where experienced players can still leave themselves vulnerable and new players don't have to lose all their stuff half a dozen times before they figure everything out, but I'd argue that we're already at the point. And don't get me wrong, I loved raids when I wasn't a Guardian, especially ones centered around PvP. I just don't think Loka needs to go out of its way to encourage it.
 
Top