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Loka has a problem...

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ACwavelength

Active Member
Slicer
This subject isn't new, but I just wanted to break it down and try and work out the root cause of it. I'll begin by giving some context to set the scene. At the very end of the post, I'll list the key points so if you don't want to read my amazing essay then scroll down.

Genuinely new towns on loka don't last long. There's usually a week long period in which they set up their storage/base area, build some walls, get the basic stuff set up. But after that, their members slowly begin to come online less and less. And we all know how this ends; their tgen runs dry and their town falls. In other cases, they constantly get raided and harassed by people from older towns. They then give up and leave. For example, Wardorian. Some just don't like the toxicity of the server, for example, Winterfell.

Some of these problems aren't unique to new towns, old towns often have the same fate as in the first problem I mentioned. Inactivity. The solution to this isn't just new content, because adding new ways of getting loot without a reason other than conquest won't motivate them to keep active and keep grinding. The only real goal loka creates for towns is to conquer the world, and these new towns usually don't do much conquest (because the world is already conquered by big old towns whom they don't stand a chance against). In this case, there is a clear way of solving this, by adding more reason to level up a town separate to conquest, more reason to get resources, more reason to manually farm to get these resources, etc.

I also talked about raiding/harassment. You could say that ''well it's a raiding server and it's only fair because other towns can be raided as well'' And in a way you're right, but the big old towns built by experienced lokans often can't. Anyone wanting to have a good raid has to go to a new town because they're less experienced. Essentially, preying on the weak. These new towns never get anywhere close to having infinite pearls before they give up and leave. There isn't really a solution to this. Maybe certain PvE town defences could be added to make raiding and defending against raiders more interesting.

Earlier in the post, I mentioned people leaving because of toxicity in the community. Unfortunately, 1.9 PvP is a niche skill, and you can only really enjoy it if you're good at it, so you'd expect players to be toxic about it. But I think this is a more recent thing. I wasn't around when old towns like Auru and others actively took part in conquest, but I don't think they'd have been as toxic as the modern PvP towns. (if I'm wrong about this then everything I'm about to say is useless) These old towns would have had more dilute PvP communities, or very little at all. They'd fight each other to have fun, not to win. As they levelled up, the non hardcore PvP people began to get bored due to a lack of content and progression, and left, leaving the PvPers in charge of the server. Now, this concentrated community has turned loka into a very toxic place.
If what I said above is true, then toxicity is a impossible problem to solve. There's not really a way to reverse the damage done in the past. Players aren't going to make their communities diverse, if anything they'll do the opposite. They won't add a questing system to their towns, because they only invite the best PvPers who don't care about that. If the goal of loka is to be just another PvP server, it has succeeded. I've said how loka needs to be more accessible in the past, so it can be fun for different groups of people, but to be honest I don't think that's possible any more.
I hope that the next combat update makes combat fun for everyone, and makes people less toxic, but I know that some players will do their best to exploit it so I doubt that.

I know some of you are gonna start crying and say 'oh but it conquest server' so before you do that remember that some people come here for the town progression, exploration, roleplay, raiding, among other things so don't dismiss them because one feature of the server is owning land.

Summary
- Loka can be boring for people who aren't here just for conquest.
- Some players leave after being harassed by other towns,
- Others leave because the community is increasingly toxic.
- Toxicity is caused by the high concentration of PvP players
- Anyone not into conquest or PvP tends to leave pretty quickly
- The simple solution to that is more progression tailored to them.

All these negative posts I've made aren't because I hate loka, they're because I want it to do well. And I think for it to do so, it has to address the problems it faces. That's why instead of suggesting content to solve the problem, I decided to outline it so the dev team can work out their own solution.
 

DeceitfulPear

Well-Known Member
Guardian
All of these things are currently on the table of being added but like many things on Loka, essentially we have only 1 person coding the plugins for the server (Cryptite) and have a laundry list of bugs to be fixed along with these features we are looking to add. Once some of these larger, more important updates can come to fruition there will hopefully be a domino effect of releases that have been discussed/in the works for quite some time now; however, can't exactly make promises when with new releases comes new bugs that take time to sort out etc etc development can be rough.

Earlier in the post, I mentioned people leaving because of toxicity in the community. Unfortunately, 1.9 PvP is a niche skill, and you can only really enjoy it if you're good at it, so you'd expect players to be toxic about it. But I think this is a more recent thing. I wasn't around when old towns like Auru and others actively took part in conquest, but I don't think they'd have been as toxic as the modern PvP towns. (if I'm wrong about this then everything I'm about to say is useless)
One of my favorite quotes and fun facts about the alliance of Asmund was DOXXing Sku to find his class schedule to know when to place inhibs as well as the infamous meme quote that was stated unironically "If I ever see Sku in real life I don't think I'd be able to hold myself back". Don't get me started on the "Join or Die" thing they had goin' either.

Competition leads to "toxicity" when people are either too full of their capabilities or insecure about their inability to do as well as they want. This is not just PvP. I know plenty of people who primarily enjoy PvP who laugh off loses and just enjoy the game just like I know plenty of people who build who demean and speak down onto another person who isn't the best at building but enjoys it regardless.


Loka is not an accessible server, I very much agree with that. It's a game that requires communication with people you don't know, the ability to think and research ways to create safety and understand exactly what you are getting yourself into. Creating a town is easy, owning a town is challenging. If you don't want to do conquest? Set your own goals for your town building wise. Getting raided and you don't have PvPers who can defend you? Make a kickass sewer system connecting all your town structures to safely get around town (Valinor) make it so people can't get out once they get into your walls. IDENTIFY your problems and find their solutions.

The server's focus is PvP and conquest yes. My personal hopes are for future PvE content to supplement World PvP or to make the grind for resources more fun and engaging whilst also having engaging stories the work on the lore of the server.

Some of the grandest server Lore, Towns, Ruins, and Friendships have all occurred due to Conquest and the intermingling of players. Make friends, be involved, be open to the idea of being a part of the server community as well as a part of your town. It won't be easy at first, you'll get burned many times, people will shoot you down, but it is absolutely worth it. 2-3 years ago I was a no name player who was sarcastic, took part in back and forth insults in VCs amongst friends, willingly ran into fights completely clueless going 0-8 more often than not and was able to laugh at my defeats and enjoy the victories. Now I'm still basically all of that except I don't quick drop anymore most of the time and I have a shiny Guardian rank because I was passionate about the server with ideas much like you and I became well known and liked amongst the vast majority of the server.

Yes Loka is a conquest server, but conquest adds a lot more than fancy buildings in spawn and is what has made Loka so grand in its own right and has many more things to come on the horizon.

One thing I seriously recommend would be to take a vacation and explore new towns and communities on the server for a while (obviously taking close to nothing with you to be careful of any shenanigans from town owners) and make some new friends. I know this doesn't really do much regarding what you've posted here but I've made many new friends by just going off to new places for the fun of it. Opening yourself up to the rest of the community is the best way to become a big part of it.

(sorry about horrible formatting I've come back to this as I wrote it multiple times because my dogs are throwing a FIT today)
 

ArcherSquid

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Community Rep
Little off-topic but still relating to new players, I believe the tutorial needs a complete rework. The current tutorial for the most part doesn't give you a grasp of what Loka truly is. It puts you into a random cave and makes you read the basics, then makes you do a random tgen battle that doesn't show you what the conquest system is meant to be played like.
 

koi0001

Well-Known Member
Slicer
That's a lot of points and text. I know this maybe isn't exactly a popular opinion or what the server backs but if you don't know how mechanics work on the server on the server you shouldn't make a town right away or try to jump into it which totally feeds into your seperate point regarding recruitment and actual usage of the quest mechanics.

If the server was to become more new town friendly I think there would need to be a more comprehensive tutorial for QoL things on Loka such as locking doors and using town portals.
 

FroggyFruit1357

Active Member
Community Rep
Some of these problems aren't unique to new towns, old towns often have the same fate as in the first problem I mentioned. Inactivity. The solution to this isn't just new content
When I made West Fruitopia, I had a few friends interested in Minecraft, not the politics and insanely in-depth conquest system of Loka. It's a niche server and I don't think you can deny that fact. People aren't aware of how conquest works. When my town started getting more and more inactive, I started feeling less inclined to play and work for a town in which nobody was interested in contributing to. I highly doubt that the entire group as a whole decided to quit because of harassment or overwhelming forces. These are issues that very active and long time players typically deal with. They left because someone in the group lost interest and stopped playing, with more and more follow, until one or two remain. This normally means not having the drive to get out and keep the t-gen powered. Before Nexa, lilfros and I felt the same thing. We had a stockpile from the time before and sparse resource island runs that kept the town alive. Conquest is the only Content. I previously have brought up this point before in my forum post Changes to Loka are needed. The PvE team has been working slowly but surely towards content that I think people not all that involved in conquest will love.

In this case, there is a clear way of solving this, by adding more reason to level up a town separate to conquest, more reason to get resources, more reason to manually farm to get these resources, etc.
This, I disagree with. The reason I love Loka is conquest. If people play Loka as a survival server like this sounds like, it makes it no different than a normal vanilla 1.13 survival server with some random people. And plus, it seems like you just want a way to get embargoed resources ;)

Anyone wanting to have a good raid has to go to a new town because they're less experienced. Essentially, preying on the weak.
On the raider's side of this, it's the thrill of raiding someone, not necessarily getting crazy loot like the fall of Auru and Byzantium, or my Noobville raid.
On the town side of this, It does seem unfair about how the town raiding works. Although I do think that to an extent, active and old towns should have more protection than a fresh, new town.
I personally really enjoyed when MtnDew was coming to Default and trying to get sets from us, it was a new challenge on how to keep him out and keep our people safe. So yes and no to this point.

Unfortunately, 1.9 PvP is a niche skill, and you can only really enjoy it if you're good at it, so you'd expect players to be toxic about it.
I think everyone can vouch for me that I am nowhere near a good 1.9 PvPer and I still enjoy it very much. You hear the negatives much louder than the positives, as I see maybe 10% of the PVP community is toxic and the other 90% as humble and respectable people. They have egos but are still respectable.

Little off-topic but still relating to new players, I believe the tutorial needs a complete rework. The current tutorial for the most part doesn't give you a grasp of what Loka truly is. It puts you into a random cave and makes you read the basics, then makes you do a random tgen battle that doesn't show you what the conquest system is meant to be played like.
I don't even think there's a whole lot of lore surrounding that spawn area and what it means for the server. The T-gen fight should not be something that players go through immediately and they should be put through all they need to know to have a good town and use Loka's content. Examples being: Locking doors, void storage, resource islands, boats at spawn, Keeping a town alive, alliances, etc. Although a lot of these come with time. The fact that I've had to start making my own tutorials on relatively simple things in the server such as T-Gen Fights really pushes Archer's point here.

If you're going to read anything on this thread, this is it in my opinion.

Before they can make a town, allow new players to form Camps. These would be essentially unmarked towns on a single hexagon. These would have similar protections to a town, preferably unraidable by block-breaking, spawn portal, etc. Camps could send invitations to one another to visit and talk, building relationships between players. 2+ camps could coalesce into a town, therefore, bringing about the town tutorial. I think this would help with the whole issue of "Creating a town is easy, owning a town is challenging." Players are thrown into politics immediately and not prepared for conquest or leading a town.
 

SilentStorm6

Active Member
Slicer
Community Rep
Apparently so did the makers of winterfell. (I have a screenshot of the signs they left but forums doesn't let me post screenshots
I can put it on discord if you haven't seen them).
Winterfell had left because they dared us to take their land before the end of the month, then we did. They placed back, and we showed, even though they wanted just New Maze to show up. If you are going to leave the server and complain about losing a conquest fight, then don't even bother with conquest at all.
 

Aurivia

New Member
I think this is why I can't settle on Loka. I keep changing towns because 1.9 PvP isn't my thing and I have noticed the toxicity in towns. I joined someones town recently and was welcomed by most members but when the owner came online he told me "go die you ewhore" and kicked me. This made me stop playing for a few weeks.
 

Castalina

Active Member
Slicer
Before they can make a town, allow new players to form Camps. These would be essentially unmarked towns on a single hexagon. These would have similar protections to a town, preferably unraidable by block-breaking, spawn portal, etc. Camps could send invitations to one another to visit and talk, building relationships between players. 2+ camps could coalesce into a town, therefore, bringing about the town tutorial. I think this would help with the whole issue of "Creating a town is easy, owning a town is challenging." Players are thrown into politics immediately and not prepared for conquest or leading a town.
This has to be the best idea I've seen. I will +100 to this right here. Having camps would definitely add so much to Loka, in many aspects.

I feel that this new time we are in, allows for its people to adapt, roleplayers to gather a new story, a town to create a new purpose, and etc. Loka to me has been through many eras, and instead of some of us wishing to go back to older times, let us look at where Loka is now. In this era we are in, yes Loka has gotten a lot more bitter, but that isn't a bad thing. I feel it has turned our community into a self-help world. Loka is a constant spinning wheel and a masterpiece that players chooses its fate, where the story keeps evolving and shifting, however, my friend this is the glory in it all.

There are some bad towns, and there some good towns. Not every town, is for every lokan. That's a fact. I am enlightened to see your points and care for Loka AC. It speaks volumes, never lose that.
 
Honestly, this whole post and all it's comments have some great points that hit the nail on the head. However, I have to especially agree on the camps idea, as well as the tutorial rework. After trying to recruit some new people into my town, the most common response that I got was how intense the server was, and that's why they quit. I think too much is introduced to quickly in the tutorial, and it needs to be slowed down. Loka is a very complex server, and the tutorial only seems to focus on the most intense parts, such as the mini conquest battle.

Second, I think that camps are a good idea. They would add a lot to making the server much cooler to explore, as well as trying to get new players to group with each other. When people begin to group together like that, good things can happen, especially if camps only die of inactivity. This feature should have a limit, though, and they should turn into towns after a while. This could also introduce more to town leveling, with you getting more hexagons as your town levels.

Third, the server needs to have less PvP going on. I think that there needs to be something more to building up your town, brewing potions, etc. I think that more in-depth systems for each of these would be great. For example, maybe make more systems like alcohol brewing, such as a alchemy system, metalworking system, more in-depth enchanting system, among other things. This could add an interesting level of complexity to certain things. However, it can easily be done in the incorrect way and become a double-edged sword.

And, finally, I think that there needs to be a bigger deterrent for large alliances to form. I think that this is really a hard truth, but, these big alliances have caused nothing but toxicity to new players, and have made them go away very quickly. Getting your town raided is not something that should instantly happen (as mentioned above), and there needs to be some form of protection for new towns in order to prevent players from leaving the server entirely. Maybe a 3-7 day long wall that people can't get through, for example. This also corresponds with big alliances having too many people. I get it, it's not an easy task for armies to be made, but, just give the little guys a chance for once. This could lead into a conquest rework that gives strength for kills, damage, etc. Not just the territory being taken. This leads into the server itself being very divided amongst the major factions. This would solve many issues with power imbalance, and would reward small towns a lot. I also think that Rivina needs to be fixed. No one seems to fight there (probably because the resources it gives aren't useful to most towns), and it doesn't have any benefits. Possible a mini-capitol that gets policy picks of their own for the whole world (different from world cap picks), and these could include more tax and what not. They would also be sent to Balak the next month and stay there for the month, and then have to reclaim Rivina, and with the conquest changes I mentioned up a bit, this could lead to very interesting combat. Honestly, there are lots of issues with what I have mentioned, however, I think that with Loka's touch to everything, the server could be a much better place with those changes.
 

Grubul

Well-Known Member
Slicer
A big problem of the whole thing is the game itself. Minecraft is so limiting on things you can do. You can only manage existing textures, particles and mechanics. hard to add anything completely new. +Crypt doesnt trust many coders with his code. Ajaxan for example
And being 2 or 3 versions behind latest minecraft version is not good either for new people joining.



Id say as soon as loka can, should transfer to hytale game engine and be a big, great community.
 

ACwavelength

Active Member
Slicer
Third, the server needs to have less PvP going on. I think that there needs to be something more to building up your town, brewing potions, etc. I think that more in-depth systems for each of these would be great. For example, maybe make more systems like alcohol brewing, such as a alchemy system, metalworking system, more in-depth enchanting system, among other things. This could add an interesting level of complexity to certain things. However, it can easily be done in the incorrect way and become a double-edged sword.
That's kinda what I was hinting at. I think towns need more reason to build up infrastructure, which could be tied in with farming and industries.
 

FroggyFruit1357

Active Member
Community Rep
Honestly, this whole post and all it's comments have some great points that hit the nail on the head.
Second, I think that camps are a good idea.
Third, the server needs to have less PvP going on. I think that there needs to be something more to building up your town, brewing potions, etc.
And, finally, I think that there needs to be a bigger deterrent for large alliances to form.
(cut down this quote because of how long it was)
the server needs to have less PvP going on + I think that there needs to be something more to building up your town, brewing potions does not go together. Also, PvP is the only thing keeping the server alive as of now.

Large alliances are going to form, sanctioned or not. I'd rather have 1 alliance have 30/40 tiles than 6 towns with 10 tiles each.

A big problem of the whole thing is the game itself. Minecraft is so limiting on things you can do. You can only manage existing textures, particles and mechanics. hard to add anything completely new. +Crypt doesnt trust many coders with his code. Ajaxan for example
And being 2 or 3 versions behind latest minecraft version is not good either for new people joining.
Mythic Mobs is cool...
Also agree that crypt could use some help coding smaller projects like the chairs idea earlier and non-server important things just to have crypt do the main workload and content and another person doing the little player suggested things. I can think of lots of little features I would love to have added for my PvE projects but I don't want to bother crypt with something small.
Also, I think we should update to new versions as soon as possible (with optifine and conquest tweaks) and then release the content. When I get new friends on the server they get on latest build immediately and I have to explain the 1.13.2 to them and why we're so far behind.

Id say as soon as loka can, should transfer to hytale game engine and be a big, great community.
Uhhhhhhhhhh idk bout this one chief
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
Also agree that crypt could use some help coding smaller projects like the chairs idea earlier and non-server important things just to have crypt do the main workload and content and another person doing the little player suggested things.
One effort in the near future is to modularize Loka into some bits that can be shared across our network of servers. There are things that ought to be unified so that you have the same experience doing stuff like /profile, or /pvp regardless of whether you're on the survival server or not. This would potentially open up Loka to having some other dev help since it wouldn't be One Big UberPlugin.
 
Also, I think we should update to new versions as soon as possible (with optifine and conquest tweaks) and then release the content. When I get new friends on the server they get on latest build immediately and I have to explain the 1.13.2 to them and why we're so far behind.
I have to agree with updating. Many new players are likely lost when you aren't on the latest version. Most people aren't very aware of the backpedaling you can do with updates in Minecraft. They just assume that the servers they want to play on are in the latest version. I know how difficult it is to update your core systems and plugins, especially when Spigot plugins change so much from update to update. Hopefully 1.16 is a smoother transition, as they haven't made a massive amount of technical changes. And, modularization of the backend, is a good idea. For some of the simpler plugins (such as fishing and chairs), it should become much easier to update, as those have less room to be broken update to update. On top of this, splitting each continent onto it's own server will immensely help to make the server more stable, and take full advantage of the modular plugin design.
Got off on a rant there lol
 

msittig

Member
Slicer
The server used to be a lot easier to be a nomad on, too. Which was good for beginning players. But with embargoes and protected territories you basically *have* to join a town to get resources from industries.

*bangs the nomad drum*
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
But with embargoes and protected territories you basically *have* to join a town to get resources from industries.
Unfortunately, it would destroy the entire purpose of territories and biomes if Nomads could bypass protection. We have other plans in the future to make life as a Nomad more pleasant though, but that can never include getting protected resources I'm afraid.
 

Obstinance

Active Member
A big problem of the whole thing is the game itself. Minecraft is so limiting on things you can do. You can only manage existing textures, particles and mechanics. hard to add anything completely new. +Crypt doesnt trust many coders with his code. Ajaxan for example
And being 2 or 3 versions behind latest minecraft version is not good either for new people joining.



Id say as soon as loka can, should transfer to hytale game engine and be a big, great community.
and dont abuse admin powers
 
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