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Death during TGen fights.

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13lackpearl

Member
Slicer
Let me start off by giving props to all the participants during the TGen battle between Valkyrie and Eldritch. Everyone gave their all in that battle and I had a lot of fun in it, more than I had in a while on Loka. (The battle consisted of total of 16 people, I believe).

However, I did feel unfair about the battle in that the defenders could come back to the fight less than 5 minutes after their deaths. While I understand the reason Crypt implemented no item drops on death during TGen fights, as it would discourage many Lokans from participating in TGen fights due to fear of their gear loss, I do think that along with complete keep inventory and Hilo's use of Eldritch airship to return to the battlefield within 5 minutes is such an advantage that despite our K/D ratio being close to 10:1, we had no chance of winning the TGen fight. We had no time to focus our attacks on TGen itself while the defenders constantly came back to attack our inhibitor, and after over an hour of constant fighting without progress, I had to leave my friends on the battlefield as I had an appointment IRL.

I am in no way saying that it didn't cost Eldritch and Hilo for the war, as I am sure, and confirmed by Opyc, that they spent large quantities of potions and ancient ingots just like we did, which cost both sides tremendously for the long battle. And I do agree mostly on that item drops on death would make most Lokans not participate in TGen wars, but the whole suicide tactics on our inhibitor made the fight near impossible for us to win. Their deaths had no meaning.

Instead of complete meaningless death during TGen fights, what if on death during TGen fights, player drops 20% of their inventory? Or even a 5 minutes of "jail" time to prevent them from quick return? These implements should not scare away players from participating on TGen fights, yet make it harder to return to battlefield almost instantly.



P.S. How do we also get airships? I'm not sure what the backstory behind Eldritch's airship is, but it does seem allow their allies to travel to their town instantly, and help them defend... instantly.
 
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Wolfegger

Active Member
Slicer
Regarding battle, the airship is a benefit mostly to towns that are not in alliances. This month, with Ibbish as capital, for example, the airship would only go to Ibbish. But enemies would attack another town in our alliance to negate any benefit the airship would give us.

There is a wait time with using town beacons to get back to a battle. Why is that wait time implemented? If there is a logical reason for this, then it should be implemented in any possible return-to-battle scenarios (i.e., players cannot use inter-continental boats and airships and beacons to get back to battle for x amount of time).

Last night's battle was interrupted by a server reboot. This messed us up big time. The lamps on the t-gen re-set. Also, during battle, I used charges on defense towers, but each time a charge only took 10% off of the defense tower's integrity. It used to be that a charge took 20% each time, I believe. Was this intended?
 

EastBowmen

Active Member
Slicer
Also, during battle, I used charges on defense towers, but each time a charge only took 10% off of the defense tower's integrity. It used to be that a charge took 20% each time, I believe. Was this intended?
I believe that this was because they had a buff tower.
 

gabrosen

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Instead of complete meaningless death during TGen fights, what if on death during TGen fights, player drops 20% of their inventory? Or even a 5 minutes of "jail" time to prevent them from quick return? These implements should not scare away players from participating on TGen fights, yet make it harder to return to battlefield almost instantly.
I would be fine with this "Jail time" Idea. I do think that players are able to retaliate to quickly and that makes it so that the attacker have to focus more on defending their inhib instead of attack the t-gen and vise versa with the defenders.
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
While I regret that I had to reboot the server for that fight (had to be done to fix the fact that the Inhibitor was invulnerable), there are a good number of reasons that, despite that, the fight was still fair and I don't think there's anything wrong with the system as it stands right now.

The Airship is a policy that Eldritch earned by becoming Capital of Ascalon. While I agree it's a bummer they were able to use it, they did earn it after all. Had there been no Airship, though, the members of Eldritch would've still been able to come back from their town portal. To me, the Airship was a perfectly fine use of the system. I can see why it's arguably unfair, but the reason I don't look at it strongly is below:

despite our K/D ratio being close to 10:1, we had no chance of winning the TGen fight. We had no time to focus our attacks on TGen itself while the defenders constantly came back to attack our inhibitor, and after over an hour of constant fighting without progress
And this is where I disagree. You guys spent a good deal of the first part of that fight intentionally not attacking the TGEN. It was at this point that not only did you guys full-wipe them several times, but they were also unable to attack your Inhibitor. There were eight of you and you're telling me in the time it took both to do a full-wipe as well as even when there were only a couple of them left, none of you could attack the TGEN? It looked to me lik you guys were choosing to farm kills and some of you were trying to lure them out of the battle zone to get gear drops.

It's this tactic that's why I'm basically unsympathetic to the unfortunate way the whole fight + server restart went down. Regardless of farming kills, it's also apparently clear that most of you didn't actually understand how the TGen fights work, as evidenced by the fact that Wolfegger was unfamiliar with how Buff Towers work.

As for the suggestions on geardrop/jail, in most circumstances, the beacon will act as the 5 minute reinforcement timer, but you did attack a Capital and TGens that were very close to their town. The defender should have an advantage on their home turf. If there were a pure 5m timer, there would be no such thing as a home-field advantage. Fights closer to the defenders' homes should be harder for attackers to win.

20% gear drop wouldn't work either, because all it would take is that 20% chance to be your armor, or your weapon. Any gear drop takes us back to the last world and in that world, nobody even came to fights if you were online, pearl, because it was a waste of time and it was an immediate and guaranteed loss of their inventory. Even 20% would keep people from showing up.

Now, ALL THAT SAID. What Mag and I did see as a possibility for change was that, in a fight of the scale of the one last night, the defenders have an advantage due to the fact that they can kinda zerg-rush the inhibitor lamps and eventually win out, since there are only 2 of them and they can't be 'buffed' in any way, so 10 full zerg-rushed overloads and they can win by throwing themselves at it suicidally. We might need to add a third power source to the inhib or maybe scale its health depending on the fight size, but we'll have to watch it. Since last night's server restart was a bit of a fluke, we'll have to see another big battle and evaluate it that way.
 
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13lackpearl

Member
Slicer
And this is where I disagree. You guys spent a good deal of the first part of that fight intentionally not attacking the TGEN. It was at this point that not only did you guys full-wipe them several times, but they were also unable to attack your Inhibitor. There were eight of you and you're telling me in the time it took both to do a full-wipe as well as even when there were only a couple of them left, none of you could attack the TGEN? It looked to me lik you guys were choosing to farm kills and some of you were trying to lure them out of the battle zone to get gear drops.

It's this tactic that's why I'm basically unsympathetic to the unfortunate way the whole fight + server restart went down. Regardless of farming kills, it's also apparently clear that most of you didn't actually understand how the TGen fights work, as evidenced by the fact that Wolfegger was unfamiliar with how Buff Towers work.
So between 15-20 minutes of spacing of each TGen attacks (3 total), and me needing to leave within an hour, you really implying that we intentionally did not attack the TGen? I guess I must've imagined the fight where I was constantly reminding our whole army that I had to go in a bit and tried to rotate people between guarding Inhibitor, attacking TGens, killing off hoards of enemy defenders, and restocking potions and repairing armor.

I'm sorry for posting such a suggestion.
 
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Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
So between 15-20 minutes of spacing of each TGen attacks (3 total), and me needing to leave within an hour, you really implying that we intentionally did not attack the TGen? I guess I must've imagined the fight where I was constantly reminding our whole army that I had to go in a bit and tried to rotate people between guarding Inhibitor, attacking TGens, killing off hoards of enemy defenders, and restocking potions and repairing armor.

I'm sorry for posting such a suggestion.
It's just what it looked like from my POV. I wasn't in your chat, so I dunno what strategies were being discussed or what was going on. From my view anyway, there were several points in time after a full-wipe where you guys were standing still with nobody doing anything, and it seemed like you only jumped back into action when they came back for another round of fighting. It's not the first time TGen fights have been used just to get people out to fight, rather than for gaining/losing strength. If that wasn't what was going on, I apologize for my insinuation.

That said, Mag/Master/I discussed this heavily about an hour ago and are going to make some changes. The Airship thing is crap, I now agree, so in the future, any town who owns an airship won't be able to use it if they're under attack. This should leave Hilo, for example, without the ability to reinforce so quickly.
 

Wolfegger

Active Member
Slicer
I thought I took down the buff tower--maybe it was the weakness tower, sorry. We had no such plan to avoid the t-gen, and we went right at it. We did assign some to watch the inhibitor, as Hilo has been sneaky before :) . But when there were attackers, we all went to defend the inhibitor. With nine opponents, it was not easy to keep track of when they had been whittled down to a number that was less of a threat for the moment; we stayed in defend-the-inhibitor mode until they were gone. This still may be a necessary strategy, as in past battles we did not do enough to defend the inhibitor (sneaky Hilo!), which led to failure.

It was our best effort yet. Hats off to the defenders, who were dedicated and relentless and clever.
 

bat3415

Member
Guardian
It's just what it looked like from my POV. I wasn't in your chat, so I dunno what strategies were being discussed or what was going on. From my view anyway, there were several points in time after a full-wipe where you guys were standing still with nobody doing anything, and it seemed like you only jumped back into action when they came back for another round of fighting. It's not the first time TGen fights have been used just to get people out to fight, rather than for gaining/losing strength. If that wasn't what was going on, I apologize for my insinuation.

That said, Mag/Master/I discussed this heavily about an hour ago and are going to make some changes. The Airship thing is crap, I now agree, so in the future, any town who owns an airship won't be able to use it if they're under attack. This should leave Hilo, for example, without the ability to reinforce so quickly.
And Cryptite, I can understand nerfing the airship, even if it is to longer than the town beacon time, like to 7 or 8 minutes, what I do not understand is completely removing it's functionality during a tgen fight, it prevents a town from getting help from allies even once, as they would have to walk to the town, most would not get warning from a town in time, and for a town like Eldritch against the sheer numbers of Elysium, we needed to resupply troops, admittedly. When a town is severely hated and has low numbers (Eldritch), it makes them a target, and they would have no chance against a superpower without assistance from others. Furthermore, what purpose would the airship even serve as a capital policy if it is completely ineffective and unused?
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
And Cryptite, I can understand nerfing the airship, even if it is to longer than the town beacon time, like to 7 or 8 minutes, what I do not understand is completely removing it's functionality during a tgen fight, it prevents a town from getting help from allies even once, as they would have to walk to the town, most would not get warning from a town in time, and for a town like Eldritch against the sheer numbers of Elysium, we needed to resupply troops, admittedly. When a town is severely hated and has low numbers (Eldritch), it makes them a target, and they would have no chance against a superpower without assistance from others. Furthermore, what purpose would the airship even serve as a capital policy if it is completely ineffective and unused?
Capital airships were not implemented to be a tool for use during world pvp. The airship being disabled during tgen fights does not stop a town from getting assistance from their allies. You still have your beacon at your town and you will have to use it based on your cooldowns as it has always been prior to the airship's creation. It's unfortunate when you are outnumbered but that's the reality. It seems logical to me that the people with superior numbers are likely going to win more fights. Recruit, train, succeed.
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
You also should consider reverse scenarios. What if Valkyrie had an Airship and East and Pearl could come back to the fight within 1-2 minutes after dying. Would you you still be happy with the Airship functioning during a TGen fight then?
 

bat3415

Member
Guardian
While I agree with your main point, this is the issue,
Recruit, train, succeed.
How is a town supposed to succeed in recruiting when the main alliance on the server, and the server in it's entirety, slanders that particular town to every new player on Loka? How is a new player to come to his or her own decision when joining the server when they her from all sides, "If you join Hilo you're a communist", "Join Hilo and you'll get killed" everyone is against us, making it near impossible to do any recruiting, and thus to get any new bodies to defend. Jeez, now I know how Cashmere felt. /s
 

bat3415

Member
Guardian
You also should consider reverse scenarios. What if Valkyrie had an Airship and East and Pearl could come back to the fight within 1-2 minutes after dying. Would you you still be happy with the Airship functioning during a TGen fight then?
Yes, as they are using a game mechanic to their own advantage, would I be happy about their resupply time? No, I'll admit that. However, if they're using something that they have earned through conquest, I don't take issue with it.
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
Well that's also unfortunately part of the politics. I didn't let it stop me when Dragonstone had their little smear campaigns against us... I know it sucks but I promise, it won't stop you. Work against them. Fight fire with fire. Do what it takes within the rules.
 
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